• Porsche 960/961 Ferrari 458 rival reported to get a quad-turbo 3.9 liter flat-8 with 650 horsepower and only weigh 3000 pounds - Rendering and details

      Some eye opening numbers for the Porsche 960 being reported by Automobile. Quad-turbo 3.9 liter flat-8? 650 horsepower? 3000 pounds curb weight? Certainly amazing figures but it is highly doubtful they are accurate. Regardless, that is exactly what Automobile claims. This motor would be in a mid-engine configuration sending power to all four wheels and mated to a 7-speed dual clutch automatic. Aluminum, magnesium, and carbon fiber would all help contribute to the low weight.

      This all seems somewhat unlikely. Especially that curb weight with all wheel drive. If the car were exactly what was listed here, what is the point of the 918 Spyder supercar? This would create redundancy. Additionally, the previous report of the 960/961 using the 4.6 liter motor already developed from the 918 spyder with 570-580 horsepower makes far more sense. It would also position the car closer to the 458 Italia price and performance wise.

      For now, treat this all as a rumor. A big one at that.


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      This article was originally published in forum thread: Porsche 960/961 Ferrari 458 rival reported to get a quad-turbo 3.9 liter V8 with 650 horsepower and only weigh 3000 pounds - Rendering and details started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 27 Comments
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama -
        I think the 918 Spyder (if it ever comes out) will still be in a different category, mainly through price and hybrid technology.

        My thoughts on those rumors:

        -Quad turbo I see as unlikely due to the complexity, weight, size, and cost when really a biturbo would do the job with minimal lag. A turbocharged engine in general seems very likely due to gas mileage, emissions, and current trends.
        -Flat 8 I see as very unlikely, since fitting such an engine will raise the center of gravity up, and leave no room for turbocharging equipment. I'd guess a rumor based on the resurgence in popularity of the boxer engine by the BRZ/FRS.
        -650hp seems likely, since doing just a 50hp boost right now would only put the 458 slightly ahead of the Mclaren MP4-12C, which is probably its biggest competitor right now, while a 100hp boost over the current 458 would give some breathing room next to the mclaren.
        -4 wheel drive is possible, since it drastically improves acceleration times, and also makes a car more drivable by idiots, but ferrari hasn't always catered to those people, and it also would mean a good deal of added weight, which would conflict with the 3000 pound curb weight. I'd expect one or the other, but not both.
        -Everything else is likely since that's what the current car has.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        I think the 918 Spyder (if it ever comes out) will still be in a different category, mainly through price and hybrid technology.
        Seems there would be a huge performance overlap though?
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Seems there would be a huge performance overlap though?
        I don't think overlap is an appropriate word, since Ferrari and Porsche are two completely separate and competing companies.

        I do think performance is much too close for the 500k price difference between the two cars though. Porsche really needs to speed up development of their 918, otherwise it will be an outdated and overpriced flop of a car similar to the Lexus LFA.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        I don't think overlap is an appropriate word, since Ferrari and Porsche are two completely separate and competing companies.
        I'm referring to the 960 and 918. That would be two supercars essentially.
      1. whoosh's Avatar
        whoosh -
        918 is going to be an extremely limited vehicle. This 960 will be a surviving model to compete with Ferrari and McLaren.

        As for the flat 8, that's been part of this car's recipe for some time:

        http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...he-flat-eight/

        Agree with the above about packaging concerns for turbos if the 8 cylinder is confirmed.
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'm referring to the 960 and 918. That would be two supercars essentially.
        Yeah, I'm talking about the same two cars. What's wrong with two companies competing? Usually everyone benefits from that situation, especially the consumers.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        Yeah, I'm talking about the same two cars. What's wrong with two companies competing? Usually everyone benefits from that situation, especially the consumers.
        They are from the same company...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
        918 is going to be an extremely limited vehicle. This 960 will be a surviving model to compete with Ferrari and McLaren.

        As for the flat 8, that's been part of this car's recipe for some time:

        http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...he-flat-eight/

        Agree with the above about packaging concerns for turbos if the 8 cylinder is confirmed.
        This all doesn't make sense to me, guess we will see. Not regarding the flat-8, but regarding the performance figures.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        Yeah, I'm talking about the same two cars. What's wrong with two companies competing? Usually everyone benefits from that situation, especially the consumers.
        You don't understand, Sticky's saying (and I agree with him) that it makes no sense for Porsche to have a 918 AND a 960 that both have very similar performance, The 918 is expected to cost around a million dollars so you can bet it will have a big performance advantage over this 458-fighter.

        As for this rumor, I don't see a quad turbo flat-8 happening. Why would they go through all the trouble of developing that when they already have that fantastic new V8 from the 918? Just use that without any hybrid nonsense and you have a perfect 458 and SLS rival.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        You don't understand, Sticky's saying (and I agree with him) that it makes no sense for Porsche to have a 918 AND a 960 that both have very similar performance, The 918 is expected to cost around a million dollars so you can bet it will have a big performance advantage over this 458-fighter.
        That is exactly what I am saying.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        As for this rumor, I don't see a quad turbo flat-8 happening.
        You have no idea how bad it sucks these big name mags can just make up articles to get hits and sell magazines. And nobody calls them on it, nobody. They post it likes it's gospel.
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama -
        LOL, I totally misread first post. I thought that car was a 458 Italia successor, not a new Porsche model...

        In that case, damn Porsche, that's good looking, but looks too much like a McLaren MP4-12C or a Ferrari F430.
      1. kokostrollet's Avatar
        kokostrollet -
        Totally agree the rumours seem unlikely, especially if you put them togehter regarding the tech specs. As for the potential competition with the 918 though, I have always viewed the 918 as a more of a "tech bench" than a model they intend to sell in some serious volumes (a bit like the 959) meaning a potential cannibalization with a new 960/961 would not be a major concern. There would still be a market for the hybrid in small volume for collectors even though that car would be much more expensive than this more conventional model even if performance was similar imho.
      1. andrew20195's Avatar
        andrew20195 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        Flat 8 I see as very unlikely, since fitting such an engine will raise the center of gravity up, and leave no room for turbocharging equipment. I'd guess a rumor based on the resurgence in popularity of the boxer engine by the BRZ/FRS.
        A flat engine should lower the center of gravity compared to a V engine, as the cylinder heads are at the same height as the crankshaft. Furthermore, if anything there should be more room to fit turbochargers below/behind (assuming the rear chassis will basically be a tube type construction) and intercoolers above the engine.

        Fitting four turbos and their plumbing might present more of a challenge, but a twin turbo system should be fairly easy.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kokostrollet Click here to enlarge
        more of a "tech bench" than a model they intend to sell in some serious volumes (a bit like the 959)
        But the 959 served as the basis for later Porsche turbo models.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
        Fitting four turbos and their plumbing might present more of a challenge, but a twin turbo system should be fairly easy.
        Quad turbo is likely a pipe dream. Just like a 3000 pound curb weight.
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
        A flat engine should lower the center of gravity compared to a V engine, as the cylinder heads are at the same height as the crankshaft.
        It would seem that way, but not quite the case. When you make a flat engine, you do put the head on the same level as the crankshaft, but now you have to raise the entire engine up to make clearance for the exhaust manifold(or intake) which now points directly towards the ground.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        I'm sure this thing will be sick if the make it. Turbo flat 8 ?? Can you say 917 ? And the 917 had the exhaust exiting the back with the rear mounted turbos so I don't see this not being possible for a 960 if they make it. Porsche is doing so sick $#@! these days and if they do make a car like this I'm sure it will be amazing.
      1. andrew20195's Avatar
        andrew20195 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        It would seem that way, but not quite the case. When you make a flat engine, you do put the head on the same level as the crankshaft, but now you have to raise the entire engine up to make clearance for the exhaust manifold(or intake) which now points directly towards the ground.
        Well, that depends on cylinder head design, manifold design, how much room you have to work with, etc. I seriously doubt if you swapped a Porsche Cayman H-6 for a V6 you would lower the center of gravity. That's the whole point of using an H-4 in the BRZ/FR-S/GT86. If you design a car around a flat motor, you can mount it very low. And on a supercar like this, cost of design and manufacture is not as much an issue as with a lesser vehicle.
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
        Well, that depends on cylinder head design, manifold design, how much room you have to work with, etc. I seriously doubt if you swapped a Porsche Cayman H-6 for a V6 you would lower the center of gravity. That's the whole point of using an H-4 in the BRZ/FR-S/GT86. If you design a car around a flat motor, you can mount it very low. And on a supercar like this, cost of design and manufacture is not as much an issue as with a lesser vehicle.
        If you don't believe it, read the August 2012 issue of Racecar Engineering. There is an article about the Subaru BRZ being developed for Super GT, and the people working on the car say this.

        You must raise the crankshaft and block up so that the exhaust manifolds clear the ground unless you only use two valve and exit the exhaust gas on the same side as the intake, which is a performance no-no. Something like a 120° V6 or V12 like what has been used in formula 1 in the past is your best bet if you want the lowest c of g. With high angle separation V engine, the heads will be in essentially the same place as a flat engine, but the entire rotating assembly will be lowered a good couple of inches.
      1. andrew20195's Avatar
        andrew20195 -
        That's a fair point. I was thinking in terms of street cars with a wet sump, where the necessary clearance for that gives you plenty of room for exhaust routing. Of course a race car or supercar would be dry sump, and you would lose some advantage compared to a low mounted vee engine. I would not think you would lose all of the benefit compared to a 90° vee, however, as noted on the Racecar Engineering website here: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...aru-brz-gt300/

        Looking at the engine from below you can see how the exhausts exit below the cylinder heads, this means the engine sits higher than it could do and negates some of the low centre of gravity benefits of the boxer design.
        Since the height of the engine is so low there are some advantages for the chassis engineers from a centre of gravity height perspective.