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    Cryptocurrency (Bitcoin/Litecoin/Dogecoin/etc) Thread

    So who is into it?

    Who casually knows about it?

    Who thinks it's a giant scam?

    discuss
    boop

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    I've been toying with getting into this. I mean basically I buy the best computer hardware and mine the coins.

    The problem is the hardware gets obsolete almost instantly and frankly even before you get it.

    Litecoin is the easiest to get into I think but bitcoin far more lucrative. With the new dedicated bitcoin mining hardware though plus the cost of electricity it's a pretty heft investment up front if you want to do say 1 block a month.

    This calculator is a good resource: http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/
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    What is it? Never heard of it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    What is it? Never heard of it.
    Not sure if you're serious.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not sure if you're serious.
    The mining.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    The mining.
    It's how you get coins.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I've been toying with getting into this. I mean basically I buy the best computer hardware and mine the coins.

    The problem is the hardware gets obsolete almost instantly and frankly even before you get it.

    Litecoin is the easiest to get into I think but bitcoin far more lucrative. With the new dedicated bitcoin mining hardware though plus the cost of electricity it's a pretty heft investment up front if you want to do say 1 block a month.

    This calculator is a good resource: http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/
    if you actually have questions.. i've spent a good number of hours (probably 100+) sorting myself out..

    With scrypt based coins (litecoin, doge, BBQ, blah blah blah heaps of $#@!coins), no the hardware DOESN'T instantly go out of date.. it's a bit hard to explain.

    Bitcoin runs of SHA-256 as the algorithm (so does peercoin, namecoin, and a few others), this is a really simple one to make ASIC's (dedicated mining machines) faster and faster, more and more energy efficient... if you buy a 200Gigahash per second machine today for roughly $2000, you will probably never make your money back unless the price SKYROCKETS, or you get super lucky and find a whole block (at CURRENT network rate, 750 days).. the network hash rate increases by something like 5% per day on average.

    Scrypt coins run off.. Well, Scrypt. It's more memory intensive, and was DESIGNED to be more CPU friendly, and Graphics card unfriendly... Turns out it's not so bad for GPU's, but is still highly ASIC resistant, hence GPU mining is still the way to go.

    Recently, SHA-3 has become a thing (maxcoin running keccak), but really it's not too much different in practice to scrypt (i know there are differences, just not the specifics).. It's also ASIC resistant, and SLIGHTLY more CPU friendly... but GPU's still rule the roost so to speak.

    Now as for building a mining GPU setup... you're pretty set for a couple of years off current GPU's.

    you can still mine on a 78xx or 79xx GPU... from early 2012, 2 years ago.. they won't be as energy efficient, and won't be QUITE as fast... but assuming you purchased it 2 years ago.. it's WELL paid off.

    Payoff period is about 40-50 days on average from what i calculate off.. Personally i'm running 12 280x, 5*270+1*270x, and 2 290's.. i can't really run much more than that as my houses 3x2400w circuits are close to maxed out 'safety wise' haha. Could fit maybe 6 more 280x split across the emptiest 2, but i'd probably look at getting just another 270 rig, even though it's less cost effective.

    Litecoin (or doge, etc.) converted to bitcoin will provide some hundreds of percent (thousands?) higher $ROI than mining bitcoin.

    I got in on dogecoin in mid december (week 2 or so) and with a single 6950 ($130-$150 of GPU) got about $600USD of coin while it was easy, before the prices rose.

    currently i'm working on ~ .01 to .015BTC per day per megahash per second, average. and running 5mh/s, going to 14 in the next few days Click here to enlarge.. I'm semi-trading most of it into dogecoin as prices rise and fall, as i'm expecting doge to hit at least 5c each within 24 months... a $10k~ setup should be able to get at least 5-10m (somewhere) in doge in the next 12 months... .21 of a bitcoin per day, counting that bitcoins *COULD* hit 5 figures eventually... hell, even without a price rise, it more than pays for hardware+electricity lol.

    my calculator of choice is www.coinwarz.com - it does the 'biggest' scrypt coins, as well as SHA256... FWIW, there's HUNDREDS of other unlisted coins, some of which you can make thousands or more if you mine on first day... 99% are trash that will die... i know people that made $10k+ in a day when maxcoin first came out, and they worked out how to get on it easily. mining whole blocks, when the blocks were 1-1.2 BTC worth.

    if you want a block per month RELIABLY in bitcoin, you're looking at about $50k in hardware.. and it will probably be good for a couple blocks RELIABLY... a friend of a friend got 4 blocks solo with a 3 terahash setup (about $30k) in a couple of months.. but that's a serious gamble more than anything.. a block being 25BTC

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not sure if you're serious.
    was going to say that >_>

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    The mining.
    it takes a while to work out, for sure... and that it's not 'generating money from nothing'... run some software on GPU's, get rewarded for doing the 'work' (transaction processing).
    boop

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    If anyone is a good coder then let me know. I'm in the beginning phases of putting up a crypto exchange. Probably will be hosted in Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands. I might put up proxy logins in the US or Canada to take the brunt of the DDoS attacks, but the wallet daemon and trading engine will be in a separate area. A 3 or 4 server setup to reduce load and risk.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    If anyone is a good coder then let me know. I'm in the beginning phases of putting up a crypto exchange. Probably will be hosted in Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands. I might put up proxy logins in the US or Canada to take the brunt of the DDoS attacks, but the wallet daemon and trading engine will be in a separate area. A 3 or 4 server setup to reduce load and risk.
    Interesting.. Wish i had more coding knowledge.. Have thought about setting up pool or exchange, as i know i could do it, it's not THAT complex, and i'm sure i'd learn.. but after tompool (multipool made by an australian) got hacked by a vanillaforums exploit, and had 14BTC stolen.. Not to mention the gross incompetence of MtGOX, among other exchanges having massive losses over the years.. unless you have 10/10ths the knowledge, it's just not worth it for my conscience Click here to enlarge

    I know a lot of pools/exchanges run off cloudflare, for DDOS protection, which has it's own drawbacks.

    and pool wise, comparing middlecoin and say Clevermining... transparency, layout, visible statistics, speed.. all key, which applies for exchanges too.

    And there's plenty of past experience to draw from exchange wise.. like cryptsy's Bitcoin database slowing to a halt, and how and why that happened.
    boop

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    I don't see the reason of even dealing with a pool.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't see the reason of even dealing with a pool.
    Unless you have crazy hardware, its the only realistic way to get paid... You can mine and mine all you want. But unless you are lucky enough to discover a block, then you get zilch. With a pool, your odds are higher. You get more frequent but smaller payouts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't see the reason of even dealing with a pool.
    Because no matter how you mine, on AVERAGE, you'll get the same payout over time, unless you manage to get lucky on a high difficulty coin solomining blocks... like said bitcoin ASIC's and getting a block luckily.. it's like playing the lottery, really.. you could make WAY more, or literally nothing.

    check out hash rates, check out the cost of setting up a rig powerful enough to reliably solo mine blocks... say dogecoin.. 100gh/s network hash rate peak ish, a 100mh setup will cost ~$166,666, and will find you 1/1000 of all blocks.. at a rate of 1440 blocks per day, that's.. well 1.5 blocks a day.. downside being, the rewards are random between 1-500,000 .. so you could be unlucky in that 1.5, and get <100,000 payout.. .or get lucky and get a >250,000 payout (which is the average)... this ENCOURAGES pool mining, by averaging an average haha.

    or you could have REALLY bad luck, and not get a block for days, or weeks even. Again, lottery.

    However, go with a reasonable size pool, and you'll get roughly the same amount you're expecting average... every single day, reliably.

    You could P2Pool i guess (not a pool pool)...


    pools like middlecoin/hashco.ws/wafflepool/clevermining... they all mine the most profitable (ish) scrypt coin, changing multiple times per hour, then auto trading it for you.. it's simply the safest safe average over mining any other, you get a reliable enough payout directly in bitcoin.. then you can convert it to your coin of choice, trade it, or just keep it Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Unless you have crazy hardware, its the only realistic way to get paid... You can mine and mine all you want. But unless you are lucky enough to discover a block, then you get zilch. With a pool, your odds are higher. You get more frequent but smaller payouts.
    I prefer bigger payouts and relying on nobody but myself. It's safer, it's better.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Interesting.. Wish i had more coding knowledge.. Have thought about setting up pool or exchange, as i know i could do it, it's not THAT complex, and i'm sure i'd learn.. but after tompool (multipool made by an australian) got hacked by a vanillaforums exploit, and had 14BTC stolen.. Not to mention the gross incompetence of MtGOX, among other exchanges having massive losses over the years.. unless you have 10/10ths the knowledge, it's just not worth it for my conscience Click here to enlarge

    I know a lot of pools/exchanges run off cloudflare, for DDOS protection, which has it's own drawbacks.

    and pool wise, comparing middlecoin and say Clevermining... transparency, layout, visible statistics, speed.. all key, which applies for exchanges too.

    And there's plenty of past experience to draw from exchange wise.. like cryptsy's Bitcoin database slowing to a halt, and how and why that happened.
    Setting up a pool is something I already thought about and decided against. Too much DDoS, too many problems with people dumping you for the next big pool etc... Netcodepool has done a lot for the community and everyone has jumped ship and is just joining multipools. Those multipools are just killing the scene really.

    In the united states, exchanges are money transmitters, and pool owners are money 'administrators'. Both of which have to register as a money business service with the feds, and on top of that registering with each and every state except montana and I think south carolina. For florida alone, they require a surety bond of 50k MINIMUM up to 2% of your gross volumes. Multiply that by 48 states and you are in for a world of hurt. Thats why I'll be hosting off shore.

    As far as mitigating risk, I've considered making my exchange be completely 100% cold storage. In otherwords, you are transmitting to a cold storage wallet. And 24-72 hour withdrawls are required. Even if the server is hacked, they have access to no private keys. The worst they could do is alter the tables which hold the user balances. But an audit system in place which audits prior to withdrawl should eliminate that. The biggest downside, is this requires being in close proximity to the server unless you want to pay someone at the datacenter to insert and remove drives on a daily basis. Security has its costs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Because no matter how you mine, on AVERAGE, you'll get the same payout over time, unless you manage to get lucky on a high difficulty coin solomining blocks... like said bitcoin ASIC's and getting a block luckily.. it's like playing the lottery, really.. you could make WAY more, or literally nothing.

    check out hash rates, check out the cost of setting up a rig powerful enough to reliably solo mine blocks... say dogecoin.. 100gh/s network hash rate peak ish, a 100mh setup will cost ~$166,666, and will find you 1/1000 of all blocks.. at a rate of 1440 blocks per day, that's.. well 1.5 blocks a day.. downside being, the rewards are random between 1-500,000 .. so you could be unlucky in that 1.5, and get <100,000 payout.. .or get lucky and get a >250,000 payout (which is the average)... this ENCOURAGES pool mining, by averaging an average haha.

    or you could have REALLY bad luck, and not get a block for days, or weeks even. Again, lottery.

    However, go with a reasonable size pool, and you'll get roughly the same amount you're expecting average... every single day, reliably.

    You could P2Pool i guess (not a pool pool)...
    You can get a motherboard with 8 slots and 8 cards that do 600 gh/s. Why the $#@! bother with a pool?

    If you have the hardware you're going to get paid.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I prefer bigger payouts and relying on nobody but myself. It's safer, it's better.
    l
    like i said, it's exactly like playing the lottery

    the reward is potentially bigger, sure

    but the risk is INFINITELY higher.

    Definitely not safer, arguably not better.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    l
    like i said, it's exactly like playing the lottery

    the reward is potentially bigger, sure

    but the risk is INFINITELY higher.

    Definitely not safer, arguably not better.
    It is safer first of all as you aren't sharing anything with anyone else. So by default it's safer.

    A pool just makes it easier but it's socialized mining essentially. F that.

    Pay to play.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It is safer first of all as you aren't sharing anything with anyone else. So by default it's safer.

    A pool just makes it easier but it's socialized mining essentially. F that.

    Pay to play.
    Listen... What is your goal? Are you in it to prove a point or make the most money? Because if you're in it to make the most money, then you're doing it wrong.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Listen... What is your goal? Are you in it to prove a point or make the most money? Because if you're in it to make the most money, then you're doing it wrong.
    Well isn't money the goal? Why else do it?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well isn't money the goal? Why else do it?
    Then unless you like the odds of winning the lottery, a pool is far above and beyond the best way to make the most money with the highest probability.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Then unless you like the odds of winning the lottery, a pool is far above and beyond the best way to make the most money with the highest probability.
    I think you mean a pool offers the most steady return.

    I'd rather keep all 25 coins per block for myself.

    Regardless, is it really worth investing in the hardware? I thought about it and have yet to do so.
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    Solving a block is like solving a soduko puzzle. You might get it perfectly right the first time, requiring little effort(Hash power). On the other hand, you're house might catch fire and burn down into rubble, and the rubber from your tires might melt and form the winning lottery numbers for the next megamillions(And a valid barcode).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You can get a motherboard with 8 slots and 8 cards that do 600 gh/s. Why the $#@! bother with a pool?

    If you have the hardware you're going to get paid.
    that'd be for SHA-2 coins with an ASIC, not scrypt.

    like i said, to get anywhere you really need a MINIMUM of $30-50k in hardware, and it likely will never pay off.. do the calculations, you'll see

    8+slot backplanes, you're looking at stupid expensive stuff with weirdass powersupplies.. and the operating systems have their own limits.. the record is 11 GPU's on a single backplate, not sure what OS it was running.

    more realistically, you're looking at a 6 slot mobo with risers... 6x 280x (most cost efficient) will get you about 4300-4500 kh/s

    if you don't believe me, run the sums, calculate for difficulty increase, and you'll conclude scrypt coins are the way to go for mining.

    Sure, you could get $50k in bitcoin ASIC's.. and sure, you MIGHT solo a few blocks

    or you could get zero, and you're out 50k.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think you mean a pool offers the most steady return.

    I'd rather keep all 25 coins per block for myself.

    Regardless, is it really worth investing in the hardware? I thought about it and have yet to do so.
    What happens if because your mining power is insufficient, you NEVER solve a block? How much money are you keeping to yourself, exactly?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    more realistically, you're looking at a 6 slot mobo with risers... 6x 280x (most cost efficient) will get you about 4300-4500 kh/s
    Yes that's about right.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Sure, you could get $50k in bitcoin ASIC's.. and sure, you MIGHT solo a few blocks

    or you could get zero, and you're out 50k.
    How would you not solve a block at some point?
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