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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    This is a great thread, I've read and re-read it but the tech speak was something I couldn't quite wrap my head around...nor the overall Bitcoin "mining concept." Found this little 2 minute video and it's given me a much better understanding of some of the things you guys have been talking about. So, for anyone lost like I was, give this video a look. I'd still like to know what these complex mathematical equations are that your computers are solving...obviously it's not something in an algebra or calculus book.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmOzih6I1zs

    I can't watch the video at the moment.. but my basic explanation:

    Say you have regular money in a bank account, and you want to send that money to your friends bank account.. put in their details, click send, the banks have to have abunch of complicated checks to make sure the transaction is legit right?

    That's exactly what the 'mining' is, purely transaction processing, running some calculations that have to match up with everyone elses calculations in the end, to say 'yes, this is a legitimate transaction'... the INCENTIVE/REWARD for doing so, in order to seed the currency (you know, so it can actually be used) is the currency itself.. Once this seed is all used up (in however many years) the incentive in theory would be transaction fees alone from high volume.

    Graphics cards do this processing very efficiently.. the more processing power on the network, the more checks there are that the transactions are legitimate, the more secure it is... the more percentage of the processing power you personally have, the more reward you get.

    If one party holds >50% of the power, the currency is no longer safe.
    boop

  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I like the p2pool, however there are a lot of rejected shares, and your effective hashrate will drop because of this. However, because everyone else's does also - it all averages out. Your share is less, but so is everyone else's - so the proportion of work doesn't change. With those 2 cards - and a 7970 (basically a 280x), I get about 5-10k DOGE a day - depending on my luck. They have proxy pools now - and that helps ensure that the payout variance is less (in other words, you get paid less more often) - and am giving it a try to see if it averages out (or is less/more). Point is, I found that you will make MUCH more money mining in a p2pool instead of a global pool - but again, this induces luck in the equation. With your setup, I would almost guarantee it. The luck is due to that fact that if the current difficulty for DOGE is say 1024 - the pool will set a difficulty of say 3072; so, unless you can mine a share that is above that difficulty, you will not get a payout. Again though - for your setup, I doubt you will have any problems at all.

    Yeah, good point on the fans - they are probably flowing much more air than what I have. I just am happy with the temperature of those 270xs - but they aren't really comparable in power draw to a 280x - I have a hard time keeping the 7970's temperature under control - even if undervolted. It's a pain.

    Good luck mining - +.1BTC a day is no joke
    cool, thanks, i'll give it a go once i stop mining my current coins of choice

    blackcoin looks like it'll make potentially a few bitcoins a day, but it's only mineable for the next 3-4 days! 10 day mine time, then it's all proof of stake!

    the last 24hrs i've been mining aircoin, i got in before the difficulty doubled and have about 350 right now.. it could work out to about .5-.7BTC a day pretty easily, i'll probably switch to blackcoin until it's finished, then aircoin until the network hash rate goes above about 250MH/s (it was 50 yesterday, 80 now, peaked at about 100)

    sometimes the new altcoins are really worth mining for a few days, can easily get a few BTC worth quickly

    if you'd managed to get in on day 1-2 with a few MH on blackcoin, you'd already have a few BTC worth Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    cool, thanks, i'll give it a go once i stop mining my current coins of choice

    blackcoin looks like it'll make potentially a few bitcoins a day, but it's only mineable for the next 3-4 days! 10 day mine time, then it's all proof of stake!

    the last 24hrs i've been mining aircoin, i got in before the difficulty doubled and have about 350 right now.. it could work out to about .5-.7BTC a day pretty easily, i'll probably switch to blackcoin until it's finished, then aircoin until the network hash rate goes above about 250MH/s (it was 50 yesterday, 80 now, peaked at about 100)

    sometimes the new altcoins are really worth mining for a few days, can easily get a few BTC worth quickly

    if you'd managed to get in on day 1-2 with a few MH on blackcoin, you'd already have a few BTC worth Click here to enlarge
    Wow - the post above was probably the best explanation of cryptocurrency - I tried to +1 ya, but need to spread the love. Seriously - that's literally the best I have seen yet on the web. Short/accurate/etc.

    I had no idea about these other coins. So you basically mine these new alt-coins and get a lot more BTC it sounds like. How do you know when these things are released? I am pissed now - sitting here all dumb with my DOGE. Click here to enlarge

    I am guessing when the difficulty is that low, it could make sense to go solo? Do they have the client - or do they force you to go with a global pool? Usually the client is embedded in the wallet, but I have heard this is not always good/accurate.

    I have a few other cards on the way - I will have to stay in touch to get the latest coin info - that's super cool to get a few BTC a day, that's a ton of cash.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Wow - the post above was probably the best explanation of cryptocurrency - I tried to +1 ya, but need to spread the love. Seriously - that's literally the best I have seen yet on the web. Short/accurate/etc.

    I had no idea about these other coins. So you basically mine these new alt-coins and get a lot more BTC it sounds like. How do you know when these things are released? I am pissed now - sitting here all dumb with my DOGE. Click here to enlarge

    I am guessing when the difficulty is that low, it could make sense to go solo? Do they have the client - or do they force you to go with a global pool? Usually the client is embedded in the wallet, but I have heard this is not always good/accurate.

    I have a few other cards on the way - I will have to stay in touch to get the latest coin info - that's super cool to get a few BTC a day, that's a ton of cash.
    websites like litecointalk and bitcointalk... there's others i can't remember the name of that specifically deal with new coins no matter what

    the hard part is working out which is worth mining, and which is just a pump and dump, or otherwise crap coin never going anywhere.

    unique features are a good bet.

    and yes, when the diff is low, solo is the way to go really, until you get to maybe 5-10% of network hash rate then pools are just easier.

    the GOOD coins will usually have it all perfectly set up, a starter pool, maybe 2 or 3, the seed nodes to solo mine or p2pool or whatever you want.

    so you can still use BAMT/SMOS/cgminer or whatever you use Click here to enlarge

    for air, i found a pool with almost no one on it, i was like 80% of the pools hash rate, so it was basically solo mine haha
    boop

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    Why exactly is there to stop a million of these currencies from popping up?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    websites like litecointalk and bitcointalk... there's others i can't remember the name of that specifically deal with new coins no matter what

    the hard part is working out which is worth mining, and which is just a pump and dump, or otherwise crap coin never going anywhere.
    I will keep an eye open. If you don't mind - next time you start at a new one, shoot me a PM, I am really curious about it. I haven't let my machine breathe anything but DOGE, it needs a break. Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why exactly is there to stop a million of these currencies from popping up?
    That's a good question - I guess there is nothing to stop them, but the main exchanges seem to wait a while before they add them. It's kinda like the whole stamping an M on everything - the more currency-types that there are, I would think it dilutes the entire market? I am by far not an econ major, but that's what I would think. Sounds like this is the way to make money though right now - gotta get some M3Coin. $#@!, we should start our own! Click here to enlarge

  7. #82
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    Boostcoins? Yay.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This forum is sophisticated.
    dude, if someone built a vb plugin for a crypto currency tip bot(give people coins for good posts etc) would you implement it? For Dogecoin it would give you a bunch of traffic probably. It may not be from a target audience, but you would have a good chance of winding up in a news article for being the first vb forum.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    dude, if someone built a vb plugin for a crypto currency tip bot(give people coins for good posts etc) would you implement it? For Dogecoin it would give you a bunch of traffic probably. It may not be from a target audience, but you would have a good chance of winding up in a news article for being the first vb forum.
    It sure sounds interesting to me. I think I have an even better idea as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Wow - the post above was probably the best explanation of cryptocurrency - I tried to +1 ya, but need to spread the love. Seriously - that's literally the best I have seen yet on the web. Short/accurate/etc.

    Let me give you a more technical explanation.


    Crypto Currency: A form of electronic money whose transactions are verified using public/private key cryptography. The way this works, is just simply math and the understanding that the difficulty of factoring backwards to find the roots is harder and takes more time than multiplying the roots to get the original equation. When you spend money, the amount of the transaction, who its to, from, where the bitcoins came from(must match a previously verified transaction) etc, are a part of this math question. So solving the answer to the math question also confirms/verifies the transaction.

    For instance, the difficulty and time required to factor:
    x2 + 3x - 4

    to find the roots of:
    (x+4) and (x-1)


    takes much more time than to simply multiply:
    (x+4) and (x-1)

    To get:

    x2 + 3x - 4


    Going one direction takes longer than the other because solving has many possibilities which must be tried, checking has only one possibility. Which also means, spending money is easy, verifying the money is valid, is hard. You want this to be hard so that one person on a 20 mhz 386 can't make fake transactions and confirm them himself, it requires a consensus of LOTS of computers to verify a transaction, which increases legitimacy.

    In the case of crypto-currencies, the difficulty of the math problem is adjustable, depending on how much compute power across the world is thrown at trying to 'factor' this number. Meaning, the more people that are mining, the Bitcoin protocol will automatically make the math question harder(that cruel bastard!). The difficulty adjustment is called re-targetting. Bitcoin retargets(re-adjusts) the difficulty every 2 weeks. The reasoning for doing this is so that blocks(group of transactions) are verified on 10 minute intervals. This is called the block time. Regulating the speed at which blocks can be solved is because when a block (group of transactions) is solved, the bitcoin protocol issues a reward out of thin air to the solver of the transaction. If the difficulty of solving is too easy, you could verify blocks very fast and get lots of bitcoin mining rewards and would inflate the currency, instead of issuing the coins through rewards on a regular period over the course of years. This reward is also reduced over time, this is called reward halving, increasing scarcity, lowering supply and increasing(hopefully) value of each coin.

    Another way to look at verifying these transactions is with a soduko puzzle. With soduko you must find where all the numbers go by guessing and this takes lots of time because they must add up correctly up and down. However adding up all the lines to verify this is accurate is very quick. If you 're-targetted' the difficulty of the soduko puzzle by simply adding more lines, this exponentially makes the solving harder even if you have a bunch of people working together.

    People in pools are effectively trying to factor an equation, the shares you contribute are guesses to this answer, but you are basically submitting bad answers. Once you get the correct answers, the block is solved, the details of the transaction are confirmed, and your mining pool gets the bitcoin reward and it is split based on how many shares or (guesses) you submitted. These pool payouts can vary depending on how long you've been mining with the pool and other things. The pools make up their own rules. Mining solo, means you are all alone, and its possible you could solve the Soduko puzzle the first try. Its also possible you never solve it.

    This explains where bitcoins come from, and what mining is. Spending them and receiving them is an easier subject.
    Last edited by klipseracer; 02-28-2014 at 06:52 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why exactly is there to stop a million of these currencies from popping up?

    Computational resources and human interest. If nobody likes it, they won't mine it. If they like it, but have limited computational resources available to mine it, then nobody will be mining(verifying) these transactions. New coins with very few miners are susceptible to 51% attacks and the network trust is low, reducing the viability and demand to use that coin. In fact, a big mining pool could hop onto the new coins network, jack the difficulty up massively, then leave. This would cause the very few miners left months or years to verify the next block, and anyone spending money couldn't get their funds confirmed and vendors wouldn't be able to give people their goods until its verified.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    This explains where bitcoins come from, and what mining is. Spending them and receiving them is an easier subject.
    LOL - thanks for the post, but I meant for a general person to understand. I have a CS degree, and understand it - and also mine myself. Click here to enlarge

    However, I want to point out - that it's not a real math problem (the example of finding roots) - it is the process of taking the current block you are working on trying to solve (transactions, a reference to the previous block, and maybe a hash of all previous hashes) - and a random number called a nonce, and hashing it until you find a "result" of this hash that meets a certain difficulty.

    The difficulty in this case is the number of leading zeros in the resulting hash. The first person to get this right "wins" - it can easily be proved by ensuring that the hash of the nonce and the information equals what the person said it did.

    In "simpler" words, it's extremely EASY to determine what the hash of something is - however it's impossible to determine what the input is given only the hash.

    That's how it works - it's that you are trying to find a number that "matches" (it can exceed) the difficulty - finding this number is difficult, however once you have it it's extremely easy to prove.

    GPUs are extremely efficient at this (talking Scrypt mining here), as they can perform many-times the number of hashes over a regular CPU due to the amount of pipelines they have. In other words - they can do this extremely simple thing a bunch of times in one "clock cycle" (not really a clock cycle, but for here, it's sufficient), while a CPU cannot.

    If it were indeed a true mathematical calculation, a CPU would likely destroy the CPU - it can do most complex (in terms of computer instructions) things much much faster than a CPU can. It's because of the degree of parallelism of the work, and because it can be parallelized on the GPU that makes this whole thing tick.

    You have the main points right, but the point of the comment was to give a +1 for a great "simple" explanation if that makes sense. Something you can hand to your Grandmother - and have her understand, yet be descriptive and accurate at the same time. He (Flinchy) did a great job of it - and you did a great job of being very explicit - however the root part is not correct; just wanted to point that out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It sure sounds interesting to me. I think I have an even better idea as well.
    I was just having a conversation about this today with someone I work with. Think about it in terms of a +1 (rep) or an "ultra-like" (Facebook). However, it's real stuff - it's of value to everyone (sorta). It's basically allowing someone to quickly award someone - like a rep, but a little different. I think the rep would definitely have to work in tandem (to keep things safe/sane), but I agree this would be a very "rewarding" thing for some people to receive.

    Not saying "you" should pay people, just saying the idea to allow others to easily pay someone (just like they can rep) - might be a great edge... I didn't even think of it for a forum, that would be a cool idea. There are probably a lot of interesting ways to implement the rules/logic - but that's what dogecoins are for, rewarding people on the web. I guess it makes sense to start using it like that.

    Just thought I would chime in. I think there is code out there for the Reddit Tip Bot that could be referenced. I don't think it would be too hard to program in, but don't know too much about vBulletin plugins at the same time. Might be something worth checking out - as klipseracer said, could drive traffic?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Computational resources and human interest. If nobody likes it, they won't mine it. If they like it, but have limited computational resources available to mine it, then nobody will be mining(verifying) these transactions. New coins with very few miners are susceptible to 51% attacks and the network trust is low, reducing the viability and demand to use that coin. In fact, a big mining pool could hop onto the new coins network, jack the difficulty up massively, then leave. This would cause the very few miners left months or years to verify the next block, and anyone spending money couldn't get their funds confirmed and vendors wouldn't be able to give people their goods until its verified.
    yep, multipools jumping on some coins makes them go from maybe 1GH to 20+, if they all jump on you can get 40+GH and seriously broken over 51% on a single pool

    until a coin is generally 50GH+ these days, if it's near the top 10 in profitability, it's not a safe currency.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    LOL - thanks for the post, but I meant for a general person to understand. I have a CS degree, and understand it - and also mine myself. Click here to enlarge

    However, I want to point out - that it's not a real math problem (the example of finding roots) - it is the process of taking the current block you are working on trying to solve (transactions, a reference to the previous block, and maybe a hash of all previous hashes) - and a random number called a nonce, and hashing it until you find a "result" of this hash that meets a certain difficulty.

    The difficulty in this case is the number of leading zeros in the resulting hash. The first person to get this right "wins" - it can easily be proved by ensuring that the hash of the nonce and the information equals what the person said it did.

    In "simpler" words, it's extremely EASY to determine what the hash of something is - however it's impossible to determine what the input is given only the hash.

    That's how it works - it's that you are trying to find a number that "matches" (it can exceed) the difficulty - finding this number is difficult, however once you have it it's extremely easy to prove.

    GPUs are extremely efficient at this (talking Scrypt mining here), as they can perform many-times the number of hashes over a regular CPU due to the amount of pipelines they have. In other words - they can do this extremely simple thing a bunch of times in one "clock cycle" (not really a clock cycle, but for here, it's sufficient), while a CPU cannot.

    If it were indeed a true mathematical calculation, a CPU would likely destroy the CPU - it can do most complex (in terms of computer instructions) things much much faster than a CPU can. It's because of the degree of parallelism of the work, and because it can be parallelized on the GPU that makes this whole thing tick.

    You have the main points right, but the point of the comment was to give a +1 for a great "simple" explanation if that makes sense. Something you can hand to your Grandmother - and have her understand, yet be descriptive and accurate at the same time. He (Flinchy) did a great job of it - and you did a great job of being very explicit - however the root part is not correct; just wanted to point that out.
    I think his roots example wasn't specific to crypto, just an example of how some calculations are harder than others in certain directions

    if you want a serious step by step breakdown, a guy has written up an article on it i could post if you haven't read it?

    i mean from initially making the protocol to generating the hashes, every step.

    ED: on the VBtipbot - i'd use it

    give a buck or two to the great posts on this forum, not JUST imaginary internet points Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    I think his roots example wasn't specific to crypto, just an example of how some calculations are harder than others in certain directions

    if you want a serious step by step breakdown, a guy has written up an article on it i could post if you haven't read it?

    i mean from initially making the protocol to generating the hashes, every step.
    Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was imaginary or a real example... The hash algorithm is "the thing" - just wanted to clarify that part.

    re: protocol, for sure, would like to read it - throw it up here.

    I have the source somewhere for a Scrypt-coin POW algorithm, but am not sure if anyone cares. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was imaginary or a real example... The hash algorithm is "the thing" - just wanted to clarify that part.

    re: protocol, for sure, would like to read it - throw it up here.

    I have the source somewhere for a Scrypt-coin POW algorithm, but am not sure if anyone cares. Click here to enlarge
    it might take a while, i'm having trouble finding it haha.. it's not showing up on /r/bitcoin all time top 100 Click here to enlarge

    and google is no help
    boop

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    http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/ho...ctually-works/

    this isn't the one i was after, but it's decent i think
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I was just having a conversation about this today with someone I work with. Think about it in terms of a +1 (rep) or an "ultra-like" (Facebook). However, it's real stuff - it's of value to everyone (sorta). It's basically allowing someone to quickly award someone - like a rep, but a little different. I think the rep would definitely have to work in tandem (to keep things safe/sane), but I agree this would be a very "rewarding" thing for some people to receive.

    Not saying "you" should pay people, just saying the idea to allow others to easily pay someone (just like they can rep) - might be a great edge... I didn't even think of it for a forum, that would be a cool idea. There are probably a lot of interesting ways to implement the rules/logic - but that's what dogecoins are for, rewarding people on the web. I guess it makes sense to start using it like that.

    Just thought I would chime in. I think there is code out there for the Reddit Tip Bot that could be referenced. I don't think it would be too hard to program in, but don't know too much about vBulletin plugins at the same time. Might be something worth checking out - as klipseracer said, could drive traffic?
    It's a great idea but once again I have a better idea for implementation than just using it here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    ED: on the VBtipbot - i'd use it

    give a buck or two to the great posts on this forum, not JUST imaginary internet points
    It is a pretty damn good idea and would likely encourage more help if people actually got tipped for it. I'd like to be tipped.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    LOL - thanks for the post, but I meant for a general person to understand. I have a CS degree, and understand it - and also mine myself. Click here to enlarge

    However, I want to point out - that it's not a real math problem (the example of finding roots) - it is the process of taking the current block you are working on trying to solve (transactions, a reference to the previous block, and maybe a hash of all previous hashes) - and a random number called a nonce, and hashing it until you find a "result" of this hash that meets a certain difficulty.

    The difficulty in this case is the number of leading zeros in the resulting hash. The first person to get this right "wins" - it can easily be proved by ensuring that the hash of the nonce and the information equals what the person said it did.

    In "simpler" words, it's extremely EASY to determine what the hash of something is - however it's impossible to determine what the input is given only the hash.

    That's how it works - it's that you are trying to find a number that "matches" (it can exceed) the difficulty - finding this number is difficult, however once you have it it's extremely easy to prove.

    GPUs are extremely efficient at this (talking Scrypt mining here), as they can perform many-times the number of hashes over a regular CPU due to the amount of pipelines they have. In other words - they can do this extremely simple thing a bunch of times in one "clock cycle" (not really a clock cycle, but for here, it's sufficient), while a CPU cannot.

    If it were indeed a true mathematical calculation, a CPU would likely destroy the CPU - it can do most complex (in terms of computer instructions) things much much faster than a CPU can. It's because of the degree of parallelism of the work, and because it can be parallelized on the GPU that makes this whole thing tick.

    You have the main points right, but the point of the comment was to give a +1 for a great "simple" explanation if that makes sense. Something you can hand to your Grandmother - and have her understand, yet be descriptive and accurate at the same time. He (Flinchy) did a great job of it - and you did a great job of being very explicit - however the root part is not correct; just wanted to point that out.
    Well in that case I jumped the gun with the example as I read Flinchy's post and stopped reading the remaining posts until after I was done. I did have in my post at one point that this isn't exactly how cryptos work, however I must have taken this out. I mention roots because most people understand basic factoring and the difficulty of factoring is the basis of many encryption algorithms and was used as an example to help understand what mining actually is. The hashing as you know is actually done on the header and the amounts of the transaction, where the money is going etc also is not part of that header, however the hash of the current block as well as the hash of the previous block which does hold that transaction information is. So the hashing/computing doesn't actually confirm the transactions directly, rather it confirms the header of the block which contains those transactions. In addition to this there is the 4 byte nonce, difficulty and timestamp and client version.

    EDIT: Cryptography is not a strong suit of mine by any means. Neither is security as I'm not a good reverser. I hire people to do the security part, even if my code is pretty secure already. Pretty good might as well be not good.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's a great idea but once again I have a better idea for implementation than just using it here.
    There are also tipping platforms that already work on any/most websites... Whatever you are thinking is probably already possible. The advantage here is you could be the first to integrate it directly. You would need to work with a crypto developer and simply allow them to create a plugin on the page which will 'ping' their server with the tip, and give them a forum account and API access to make posts to confirm tips etc.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    There are also tipping platforms that already work on any/most websites... Whatever you are thinking is probably already possible.
    Sounds like it...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    The advantage here is you could be the first to integrate it directly. You would need to work with a crypto developer and simply allow them to create a plugin on the page which will 'ping' their server with the tip, and give them a forum account and API access to make posts to confirm tips etc.
    Yes absolutely. I mean it would be kind of cool to integrate it with the rep system as well. This forum isn't big enough to make a big deal out of it though. This would have to be a million member forum or something like that.

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