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    • Vonnen responds to PorscheBoost inquiry - Electric system supports Porsche 991.1 & 991.2, Stage 2 priced at $125k

      Vonnen's hybrid boosting Porsche 991 system naturally caught the eye of PorscheBoost due to the ongoing 991.2 project car. Their Stage 1 system adds 175 horsepower and 150 lb-ft of torque at a $75k premium.


      Expensive for sure but this is new and uncharted territory. PorscheBoost inquired as to the cost and availability of the Stage 2 system as well as if Vonnen would be interested in PorscheBoost taking a tour of their facility and more importantly testing out the product.

      First things first, Stage 2 retails at $125k. Ouch. That is essentially the price of the car itself. This is clearly an upgrade for the wealthy Porsche enthusiast.

      Stage 2 does add 350 horsepower and an instant 294 lb-ft of torque. That is a gigantic difference:


      Stage 2 also weighs 70 pounds more coming in at a total of 190 pounds.

      Additionally, Vonnen's site shows the system as applied on the 991.1 but the good news is it works for 991.2 models as well.

      Want a 991.2 GT3 with another 300 lb-ft of torque coming on instantly? You can have it.

      The only clarification PorscheBoost is still waiting on is how long you can keep each system engaged. This may not be the kind of boost guys running 1/2 miles are looking for depending on how quickly the battery is depleted at each stage.

      PorscheBoost looks forward to a test drive!

      Quote Originally Posted by Vonnen
      We'd love to have you out for a visit and test drive when the car is ready for a proper evaluation. We are in the later stages of development and are not ready for such a test drive just yet.

      I will be in contact with you as the timeline firms up, and we can arrange a visit.
      Vonnen New-Tech Performance Benefits
      Electric motors behave differently than gasoline engines. Vonnen uses this to great advantage.

      Torque From Idle
      Vonnenís electric motor is capable of delivering a full 150 ft/lbs of torque from idle all the way to 5500 rpm, with 120 ft/lbs still available through to 7500rpm . That means power at usable RPM, no need to downshift or wait for the engine to rev. Tip into the throttle at 1000, 2000, or 3000 rpm and go.

      This makes Vonnenís real world performance even greater than the 175hp increase would suggest. Itís about having power when you need it and not just at some peak power RPM. Large area under the torque curve makes Vonnen easy to drive fast.

      The gasoline engine behaves as normal, building power as RPM rises. Let the engine rev to its powerband, and the combined power output is stunning.

      Instant Response
      Immediate throttle response provides the driver with amazing power delivery control. This is especially useful when modulating the throttle to accelerate hard out of turns. Response happens within 25ms. Normally aspirated gasoline engines canít even come closeÖ and forget about turbo lag. This gives the driver an unrivaled sense of connection and control.

      Power To Weight
      Vonnenís electric motor weighs in at a mere 38 lbs, yet can deliver bursts of 175 hp. Thatís 4.6hp per pound at Stage 1, or 9.2hp per pound at Stage 2.

      Vonnen is engineered to match the way we drive performance and road racing cars; bursts of acceleration separated by longer periods of steady state, deceleration and light acceleration. Vonnen is optimized to match this driving profile perfectly, keeping weight to a minimum while delivering bursts of high power. Between bursts the system is cooled and recharged, ready for the next burst.

      Smog Compliance
      Clean performance. The gasoline engine operation is not altered, and that includes all smog and emission control systems and operation. Smog test results are the same, with or without the Vonnen system installed.

      Regenerative Braking
      Vonnenís motor can also operates in generator mode when not supplying boost. This allows the battery module to recharge from the gasoline engine, and it also recaptures energy normally lost through braking in the form of heat.

      Power used to turn the motor in generator mode slows the car, and is stored in the battery module Ė later used to accelerate the car. Recovering energy normally lost to braking enables Vonnen to increase the vehicleís fuel mileage and efficiency. It is in effect ďfreeĒ energy.

      The existing mechanical brakes and ABS system remain untouched and operate normally. Pad and rotor life are extended due to less demand being placed upon them.

      And Fuel Economy Too!
      Energy normally lost to the brakes is stored and used for later acceleration, meaning less fuel is burned to get to where youíre going.

      Software Controlled
      Vonnenís operation is controlled by the Vonnen Control Unit (VCU). Various modes of operation are driver selectable, and present modes of operation are the following:

      Street Mode
      Optimized performance at street RPM range, drive torque used to accelerate only.

      Race Mode
      Optimized for maximum performance at higher RPM, drive torque used to accelerate only.

      Virtual EV mode
      Optimized for fuel efficiency, drive torque used for steady state operation and acceleration.

      Stealth Mode
      Optimized for silent bursts of performance, electric torque used to accelerate while keeping exhaust note discrete.

      Off-Line
      Vonnen system maintains charge levels, but not creating drive torque nor creating any drag on the drivetrain.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Vonnen responds to PorscheBoost inquiry - Electric system supports Porsche 991.1 & 991.2, Stage 2 priced at $125k started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 13 Comments
      1. F16HTON's Avatar
        F16HTON -
        Kudos to Vonnen for the reply. This reads as if they do not have a working prototype and every technical performance metric is based off of estimations.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by F16HTON Click here to enlarge
        Kudos to Vonnen for the reply. This reads as if they do not have a working prototype and every technical performance metric is based off of estimations.
        I would definitely agree it seems the numbers are all estimates at this point.
      1. Zombie1's Avatar
        Zombie1 -
        “Can deliver bursts of 175hp”. The whole idea sounds awesome, but that line stands out to me. Bursts sounds like a couple seconds of full power. Hopefully that’s not the case, how long do the Tesla’s last in ludicrous mode?
      1. Bowser330's Avatar
        Bowser330 -
        This is too much work, a wheel motor that doesn’t weigh much more than stock is the way to go for a non-permanent hybrid performance solution.

        at Sema this year there was a company named orbis, write up an article on them.

        https://orbisdriven.com/

        they have a wheel motor that can be 100hp per wheel for non engine driven wheels so for fwd or rwd cars.
        overall system will add weight with batteries but would be perfect way to make them awd without adding too much unsprung weight to the wheel since their solution keeps things pretty lightweight.

        they use Zero motorcycle ev motors which are compact and powerful.
      1. spdracerut's Avatar
        spdracerut -
        Vonnen says the battery capacity is only 1000Wh. So about the size of a Prius battery. As the motor can do 145000W of power on the stage 1 setup, 1000/145000 = ~0.0069h = ~.4 min = ~24 seconds at full power. So just enough for a standing half mile.

        For the in wheel motors... I would be weary of their robustness in situations with very high G acceleration like big potholes, etc. I can see them being a better application for slower-going off-road vehicles with big sidewall tires.
      1. F16HTON's Avatar
        F16HTON -
        Similar to the Vonnen estimations, there are many more factors such as heat, friction, resistance
      1. Bowser330's Avatar
        Bowser330 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdracerut Click here to enlarge

        For the in wheel motors... I would be weary of their robustness in situations with very high G acceleration like big potholes, etc. I can see them being a better application for slower-going off-road vehicles with big sidewall tires.
        #1 we have not seen their durability/reliability testing yet. I would assume there is testing of hazardous road conditions, if not that's pretty foolish and I agree it makes it more of a risk.

        #2 How often do people even hit potholes big enough and at a speed high enough to inflict significant damage? I know it happens and if you regularly encounter them then perhaps this isn't a product for you, but it doesn't mean it isn't for everyone else who doesn't encounter huge wheel killing potholes very often. Or perhaps for a track car? or car that is used primarily for motorsports and not daily pothole encountering.

        #3 If damage does end up happening, then it would most likely happen to your regular wheel as well, that's either a risk you bear or perhaps just like wheel and tire insurance/warranty, in the future an insurance company would provide coverage for the wheel motor. The damage will cost more to repair or replace but that just means the premium or deductible is more. pay to play right?

        #4 since its removable its like any removable mod you can sell it, and generally if we assume 50% then that's your true out of pocket is $6K for the whole system. You can also use it on a leased car that you plan on returning which provides an additional market of customers who want an extra boost without risking their engine warranty.

        The risks exist, no doubt, this is new tech area, but as technology gets better, I am telling you ALL WHEELS in the future will have motors in them, either to solely power, augment power or for energy recovery, whatever. with future super light weight motors and batteries it just makes sense.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zombie1 Click here to enlarge
        “Can deliver bursts of 175hp”. The whole idea sounds awesome, but that line stands out to me. Bursts sounds like a couple seconds of full power. Hopefully that’s not the case, how long do the Tesla’s last in ludicrous mode?
        This is what I really want to get clarification on.

        If it can last a 60-130 run or more than a 1/4 mile it's pretty useful.

        A 1/2 mile ideally would the goal.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdracerut Click here to enlarge
        Vonnen says the battery capacity is only 1000Wh. So about the size of a Prius battery. As the motor can do 145000W of power on the stage 1 setup, 1000/145000 = ~0.0069h = ~.4 min = ~24 seconds at full power. So just enough for a standing half mile.

        For the in wheel motors... I would be weary of their robustness in situations with very high G acceleration like big potholes, etc. I can see them being a better application for slower-going off-road vehicles with big sidewall tires.
        Interesting calculations. Standing half mile is pretty good IMO.

        Stage 2 would do less though so more power in a shorter burst it seems.

        Maybe they would let you do Stage 1 power with a Stage 2 battery?

        I'm definitely interested in this and want to test it. Going to bigger turbos and having the electric motor offset the lag plus add a few hundred lb-ft of torque sounds almost too good to be true. Easy 1000+ hp.
      1. spdracerut's Avatar
        spdracerut -
        There is one MAJOR thing bugging me. Batteries have what is known as a C-rate. Basically how fast you charge/discharge a cell. C-rate normalizes for battery capacity. Long story short, the higher the C-rate you charge/discharge a battery cell, the quicker you shorten its life.

        So say you have a battery with 5Ah capacity. If you charge/discharge it at 5A, that's a C-rate of 1. Discharge at 10A, that's a C-rate of 2. Discharge at 2.5A, that's a C-rate of 0.5. For reference, a Model S at max acceleration has a C-rate of ~5. Because this battery Vonnen is using is so small capacity, it will have a C-rate of about 130... Typically for good cell life, you typically don't want to exceed 0.5C-1.0C too much. So... not sure how long this battery Vonnen is using is going to last.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdracerut Click here to enlarge
        So... not sure how long this battery Vonnen is using is going to last.
        Another great question.

        It seems they are still early in the process but I really hope this project pans out.
      1. spdracerut's Avatar
        spdracerut -
        Battery can't be li-ion. No way it could handle a C-rate of 130. Most of the time, you try not to exceed 1C. So.... I can't imagine it handling 130x that. So MAYBE LiPo battery like those used in R/C planes. But even those, I've only found a max C-rate of 60 with 20-30 being common. So.... Vonnen is asking 2x more C-rate than anything I can find. So... yeah.... it doesn't make any sense to me.
      1. Xiao's Avatar
        Xiao -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdracerut Click here to enlarge
        Vonnen says the battery capacity is only 1000Wh. So about the size of a Prius battery. As the motor can do 145000W of power on the stage 1 setup, 1000/145000 = ~0.0069h = ~.4 min = ~24 seconds at full power. So just enough for a standing half mile.

        For the in wheel motors... I would be weary of their robustness in situations with very high G acceleration like big potholes, etc. I can see them being a better application for slower-going off-road vehicles with big sidewall tires.
        It's the same what I was courious about, from the picture we're looking at a KERS like application, which let me doubt what kind of battery (assuming 60lb pure battery out of 80lb system)it is, you're looking at the power of a supercapacitor but some lead-acid level of energy storage 35wh/kg, I don't know batteries but from the ads of the overwhelming E-Vehicles from the web I can tell the numbers looks pretty messed up. Apart from the battery figures, I think this whole thing is very smart, they took advantage of all spaces avaliable, simple and compact, STG1 is perfect.

        As of the wheel motors, Vennom used a flywheel type MGU that replaced the factory regenerator unit with no sacrifise even contribution to the internal space is good, wheel motors don't start the engine and they don't charge the battery in heavy traffics. I think they are better with EV/PHEVs, charge from DC power mainly, well that adds a lot of weights to the invertor and battery units though.