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    • ByDesign overstates Porsche 991.2 3.0 (GTS) Kline header gains with Cobb software?

      Porsche 991.2 3.0 Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera GTS, and Carrera T aftermarket header/manifold data is a bit lacking and what we have is a bit messy. A recent Kline ceramic coated header test on a Cobb tuned Porsche 991.2 GTS raised some eyebrows.


      To begin with, so far the most comprehensive data available is from MotoIQ's test of Vektor's 991.2 headers. As already stated, that MotoIQ piece read like a sales pitch. Do we consider it independent? No. That does not mean we discount it though.

      ByDesign is claiming a 30+ whp gain with Kline's ceramic coated headers on top of a Cobb OTS software tune:

      Quote Originally Posted by ByDesign
      We finished and independent test out of the exhaust manifolds alone and picked up 30 hp and torque to the wheels and amazing power under the curve with gains from beginning to end and awesome sound! Stay tuned for the full exhaust comparison.
      First of all and to be noted, ByDesign sells Kline's product. They tout (push) it on the forums and on social media. That's fine. Kline's product is great which BoostAddict.com can attest to as we have a set of the headers and confirm very nice build quality.

      BoostAddict does not sell Kline headers though and the way ByDesign presented this data as independent is flawed. Where is the Mustang dyno data showing all the figures? Where are the min, max, and average data points? MotoIq showed those figures for Vektor's headers and then some:


      The graph from The Shop in CT is incomplete:


      What exactly are we supposed to gather from that? Ok, at least a graph with numbers for the vertical axis so we can get a better idea of what is going on:


      Clearly you see the horsepower curve is right at 455 to the wheels. Why is it the owner posted 461 but without a baseline?


      You clearly see a 461 peak there but no baseline figures. He then posted a graph that that looks like it might be touching 461 but again with no baseline curve to compare against which makes it useless except for stating his peak output now:


      What do we learn from this? Not much. It's amateur hour testing and practically worthless. Comparing two sets of headers on different cars with different tunes is an exercise in futility anyway but the way the Kline data was presented by @PTS-BRG and By Design quite simply, sucks.

      Fortunately BoostAddict member @spdracerut took it upon himself to do a little comparison work:


      The power gain % graph is interesting. However, not in the way you might think. The Cobb Tune appears to be pulling timing which results in a dip past 6200 rpm. Why? The ECU may be protecting things and the OTS tune is not aggressive or dialed in for the setup as a custom dyno tune would be.

      Regardless, essentially, what we learn is someone who sells Kline headers and someone who got Kline headers (at a discount) are claiming peak gains that are not substantiated by the data presented.

      Either show us all the runs, provide the runfiles, or don't bother.

      As you can see this is a bit of a mess and BoostAddict.com will be doing testing of the three main header options for the 991.2 3.0 platform on the same PorscheBoost 991.2 project car and on the same dyno.

      BoostAddict tentatively came to terms with Vektor who offered a ceramic coated set to test at a slight discount although this is still a large out of pocket expense. That does mean all three designs from Kline, Fabspeed, and Vektor will be in our possession for the comparison however.

      Oh, and one last thing which is important to note. The 461 Mustang figure with ceramic coated Kliine headers and a full exhaust with the Cobb OTS Stage 1 tune is 79 rear wheel horsepower short of the PorscheBoost Project 991.2 with Gintani tuning on the factory headers. In case you wanted to get an idea of how much stronger the BoostAddict Tial Sport turbocharger offering is than the X51/GTS turbos tuned by Cobb.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Kline headers 30whp gain started by quattr0 View original post
      Comments 76 Comments
      1. flsupraguy's Avatar
        flsupraguy -
        I wonder if this was on a stage 1 ots tune?
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        The post indicated that was just headers alone, no tune if I read it correctly. I guess that's why I'm skeptical....
      1. YVR666's Avatar
        YVR666 -
        Isn’t this PTS’ car?
      1. Xiao's Avatar
        Xiao -
        Iím surprised! I remember that your first header(forgot the name) thread showed no gain at factory tune level.
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        That was the Speedtech exhaust. @Sticky were you going to test the Kline headers?
      1. spdracerut's Avatar
        spdracerut -
        Actually, more like 23whp max gain at ~5500-5700rpm. PTS is not very good at analyzing data. I did a deeper analysis comparing PTS Kline data vs. Vektor data. PTS was on a GTS with Soul 200 cats and BMC air filter, Cobb stage 1 tune. Vektor was C4S, all other stock hardware, Cobb stage 1 tune. So not exactly directly comparable, but best currently available. Vektor has greater % gain everywhere over Kline. Have to use % gain because different dynos, different cars, yada yada. Of course, I encourage everyone to do the analysis themselves. I excluded the data below 4500rpm because in both the available dynos, it looks like there was boost overshoot and the ECU was doing some hunting/correction. Hence the funky torque spike in both dynos at the lower engine speeds. Above 6500, Carrera turbos tend do die out and Vektor didn't have dyno data of the stock headers past that.

        Attachment 57937
      1. spdracerut's Avatar
        spdracerut -
        Oh yeah, both dynos show a dip in power at the ~6250rpm area. The Cobb Stage 1 tune looks to be getting knock there and retarding the timing. So definitely room for improvement with a custom tune.
      1. Sticky2's Avatar
        Sticky2 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdracerut Click here to enlarge
        Oh yeah, both dynos show a dip in power at the ~6250rpm area. The Cobb Stage 1 tune looks to be getting knock there and retarding the timing. So definitely room for improvement with a custom tune.
        Was going to mention this when tearing into this thread after the holiday but you basically beat me to everything.
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        Wow lucky basta*d! Already enjoying Thanksgiving? ;-)
      1. MT15's Avatar
        MT15 -
        I just bought the Kline set from another forum member and plan on strapping this to my T which has the Akra titanium slip on, AMS air filter, stock tune. What are your guys predictions vs stock headers regarding sound and any power improvement over my current setup. Seems like most (if not all of you) on this thread have lots of first hand experience. Looking forward to your responses
      1. spdracerut's Avatar
        spdracerut -
        The Kline headers will make more power than the stock ones on stock tune starting around 4500rpm and going to redline (though not as much gain as the Vektor headers). You'll get quicker spool-up everywhere. As for sound, it'll be some amount louder than stock and have a deeper tone.
      1. MT15's Avatar
        MT15 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdracerut Click here to enlarge
        The Kline headers will make more power than the stock ones on stock tune starting around 4500rpm and going to redline (though not as much gain as the Vektor headers). You'll get quicker spool-up everywhere. As for sound, it'll be some amount louder than stock and have a deeper tone.
        Sounds good. I think it should still make decent power with the akra muffler even though the cats are stock. I dont think I got all of the low hanging fruit with just. According to akra adding the cats too would only add 4 ponies on top of the muffler, but the headers may need better cats to realize the gains.
        I'll be happy with 10 ponies at the wheels in a good chunk of the powerband (like dynos above), better sound and throttle response.
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        Slightly off subject....there was a T dyno with Akra shows 380ish whp. I thought that was high given the T engine is the same with base (mine on dynojet only shows 350 whp. Dyno it twice at 2 different shops with different weathers) . I guess dynos r varied greatly.

        Did they pump the power in T?
      1. flsupraguy's Avatar
        flsupraguy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by quattr0 Click here to enlarge
        Slightly off subject....there was a T dyno with Akra shows 380ish whp. I thought that was high given the T engine is the same with base (mine on dynojet only shows 350 whp. Dyno it twice at 2 different shops with different weathers) . I guess dynos r varied greatly.

        Did they pump the power in T?
        T's have the base small turbos
      1. Xiao's Avatar
        Xiao -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by quattr0 Click here to enlarge
        Slightly off subject....there was a T dyno with Akra shows 380ish whp. I thought that was high given the T engine is the same with base (mine on dynojet only shows 350 whp. Dyno it twice at 2 different shops with different weathers) . I guess dynos r varied greatly.
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by quattr0 Click here to enlarge

        Did they pump the power in T?


        It's more likely about the way you dynoed it. Did you strip the rear bumper? the big air duct to the intercooler? Where did they place the air blower? They all come with different results, overheating the IAT and the ECU is deviating actual throttle position from pedal signal to limit your output. The boost sipke is really killing the power when I compared my stock file two dyno runs before and after we removed the air duct and exposed the intercooler to the air.

        It was in hot summer so I did have some wave on the torque curve as well when I did the first tune had like 46X WHP and lines were not smooth like the photo below, the IAT was high and the gaps between pedal position and throttle position, then I degan to give the cooler body some cold water spray, as far as the throttle opens more consistent to command, the WHP goes to 480. I finally hit 498 after two dozen runs, could been better with the finalised file with a cooler car. The car is a c2s, had bmc filter and 200cell car DP then.

        First cool car run I had this as a reference
        Attachment 57968

        The second stock file run with air duct removal and a little spray. And the best run for version 1 file.
        Attachment 57969

        Best I had with each file.
        Attachment 57970

        Yeah I know I's a bit cheating as you cannot do this kind of cooling on the street, but we can see the potential: stock file the engine or turbo will not fade before 7200rpm, with some more boost the power will max at 6500, but will keep close to max at 7000-7200. We didn't change ignition, so there can be more.

        See the logs of both tuned files, all work to do was to bring the purple line close to the redline(at the bottom of the pics) as possible, the more identical, the more power.
        Attachment 57971 Attachment 57972

        Attachment 57973
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by flsupraguy Click here to enlarge
        T's have the base small turbos
        I know that I meant increase power thru tuning by Porsche on stock T.
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        OK thanks for this data. Yours is the S version and the delta between stock 2 runs is 16 whp. The T I mentioned is 30 whp+ vs Base (my numbers); thus my thought on power difference in the T. I understand on paper it's the same with base but I doubt it....

        I only had 2 small blowers like yours. No big air duct to intercoolers and rear bumper was on.
      1. F16HTON's Avatar
        F16HTON -
        I'm not sure if it made it here, but SP Motorsports had some images of them doing a stock .2 GTS to Klein headers test. I have yet to see final details.

        https://www.instagram.com/p/BqQYox8lxdR/
      1. quattr0's Avatar
        quattr0 -
        So i guess these vendors outdone Porsche engineers? ;-)

      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Porsche 991.2 3.0 Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera GTS, and Carrera T aftermarket header/manifold data is a bit lacking and what we have is a bit messy. A recent Kline ceramic coated header test on a Cobb tuned Porsche 991.2 GTS raised some eyebrows.

        Click here to enlarge

        To begin with, so far the most comprehensive data available is from MotoIQ's test of Vektor's 991.2 headers. As already stated, that MotoIQ piece read like a sales pitch. Do we consider it independent? No. That does not mean we discount it though.

        ByDesign is claiming a 30+ whp gain with Kline's ceramic coated headers on top of a Cobb OTS software tune:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ByDesign Click here to enlarge
        We finished and independent test out of the exhaust manifolds alone and picked up 30 hp and torque to the wheels and amazing power under the curve with gains from beginning to end and awesome sound! Stay tuned for the full exhaust comparison.
        First of all and to be noted, ByDesign sells Kline's product. They tout (push) it on the forums and on social media. That's fine. Kline's product is great which BoostAddict.com can attest to as we have a set of the headers and confirm very nice build quality.

        BoostAddict does not sell Kline headers though and the way ByDesign presented this data as independent is flawed. Where is the Mustang dyno data showing all the figures? Where are the min, max, and average data points? MotoIq showed those figures for Vektor's headers and then some:

        Click here to enlarge

        The graph from The Shop in CT is incomplete:

        Click here to enlarge

        What exactly are we supposed to gather from that? Ok, at least a graph with numbers for the vertical axis so we can get a better idea of what is going on:

        Click here to enlarge

        Clearly you see the horsepower curve is right at 455 to the wheels. Why is it the owner posted 461 but without a baseline?

        Click here to enlarge

        You clearly see a 461 peak there but no baseline figures. He then posted a graph that that looks like it might be touching 461 but again with no baseline curve to compare against which makes it useless except for stating his peak output now:

        Click here to enlarge

        What do we learn from this? Not much. It's amateur hour testing and practically worthless. Comparing two sets of headers on different cars with different tunes is an exercise in futility anyway but the way the Kline data was presented by @PTS-BRG and By Design quite simply, sucks.

        Fortunately BoostAddict member @spdracerut took it upon himself to do a little comparison work:

        Click here to enlarge

        The power gain % graph is interesting. However, not in the way you might think. The Cobb Tune appears to be pulling timing which results in a dip past 6200 rpm. Why? The ECU may be protecting things and the OTS tune is not aggressive or dialed in for the setup as a custom dyno tune would be.

        Regardless, essentially, what we learn is someone who sells Kline headers and someone who got Kline headers (at a discount) are claiming peak gains that are not substantiated by the data presented.

        Either show us all the runs, provide the runfiles, or don't bother.

        As you can see this is a bit of a mess and BoostAddict.com will be doing testing of the three main header options for the 991.2 3.0 platform on the same PorscheBoost 991.2 project car and on the same dyno.

        BoostAddict tentatively came to terms with Vektor who offered a ceramic coated set to test at a slight discount although this is still a large out of pocket expense. That does mean all three designs from Kline, Fabspeed, and Vektor will be in our possession for the comparison however.

        Oh, and one last thing which is important to note. The 461 Mustang figure with ceramic coated Kliine headers and a full exhaust with the Cobb OTS Stage 1 tune is 79 rear wheel horsepower short of the PorscheBoost Project 991.2 with Gintani tuning on the factory headers. In case you wanted to get an idea of how much stronger the BoostAddict Tial Sport turbocharger offering is than the X51/GTS turbos tuned by Cobb.